Curse

Yichi · Jun 08, 2007, 11:52 PM // 23:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miral

yeah this says it all. pretty much almost all the things I've been saying on this subject over the past few months, all in one post. agree 100%.

it does say it all, shame its only 50% correct...

Bryant Again · Jun 08, 2007, 11:53 PM // 23:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miral

no? what about 55 monks? one permanent enchantment, get hit a few times, and infinite energy. nothing even needs to die for it to happen. thats where the balance comes in with soul reaping, it gives absolutely no benefit until you kill something.

You just compared SR energy gain to the 55 monk build, a solo build that doesn't contribute to parties in PvE whatsoever.

Quote:

now the question is, have you? sounds more like you're a bitter member of another class that just wants to hurt necromancers so you'll be more powerful by comparison...

No, he's just a guy that pwns youngbloods about balance. Also, you're throwing your credibility down the toilet.

I was one of the many so-called PvErs that used to hate Mendes and the other "PvP LEETISTS". After reading his valient posts in the Soul Reaping thread (which is where this discussion should be) I eventually saw the light, and realized the complete overpoweredness that was Soul Reaping.

Miral · Jun 08, 2007, 11:57 PM // 23:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Great Al

Hmm...how about just about every Ele to play in the deep (and my standard build elsewhere as well) which includes Fire Attunement, GoLE, and Glowing Gaze? (don't respond with, "but glowing gaze does damage!!")

who can also spam searing flames and liquid flame and meteor swarm and other huge nukes with max fire magic and not have to worry too much about any exhaustion received.... seems balanced to me, as one who plays all classes *shrug* the energy management skills aren't always needed, they're just needed when using the high energy nukes. necros (pre-nerf) have good energy management, but they don't have any huge nukes and a bit of exhaustion will cripple them completely. It all works out in the end (pre-nerf).

Lord Mendes · Jun 09, 2007, 12:03 AM // 00:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by countesscorpula

Not having constant worries about energy is the necro's strength.

Just like having little to know fear of interupts is the strength of mesmers.

Just like still having a decent E pool while being plastered with exhaution is the Ele's strength.

You shouldn't have typed a long thread when these 3 lines are perfect summaries.
Now tell me this, do you think that not having to worry about energy, not fearing interupts, and having a bigger energy pool are the same or equal?
Worrying about energy is the primary concern related to playing any caster, and simply bipassing that is MAJOR. The whole depth related to playing a caster means nothing when you don't have to worry about energy. I'm not going to lie, but it disturbs me that you actually type "Not having constant worries about energy is the necro's strength" and think it's ok. It's not! This is where we are disagree. A necro should have to worry about energy! This is why I think the fundamental design of soul reaping is incorrect, and anything adding any sort of depth to the necro is a good thing. Our opinions differ because our experiences differ, I play an e-sport, and you play an easy and low budget PvE game.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miral

no? what about 55 monks? one permanent enchantment, get hit a few times, and infinite energy. nothing even needs to die for it to happen. thats where the balance comes in with soul reaping, it gives absolutely no benefit until you kill something.

Abuse of skill mechanics which rely solely on an enemy hitting you, which rarely happens if you don't want it to as opposed to someone dying (either your team or mob), which realistically always happens. If you really want to compare the two (which you shouldn't since one is a skill and the other is a primary mechanic) you should play a necro with 0 sr and no balth spirit (control), one with balth spirit with zero soul reaping, and one with no balthz spirit and 10 SR. Tell me which is better, the one that realistically provides more energy passively, or the one that ties down your secondary, limits your skills, is an enchantment that can be removed, and slows down your regen, all while only providing energy if an enemy hits you, which shouldn't happen.
Your argument is moot, give me a break. Infinite energy supply can be attained in very limited and risky situations with specific skills and professions, yet it was almost the norm with pre-nerf soul reaping in most areas of gw.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miral

now the question is, have you? sounds more like you're a bitter member of another class that just wants to hurt necromancers so you'll be more powerful by comparison...

I have. Actually opened my necro's second birthday present yesterday.
As for being "a bitter member from another class", are you kidding? I am not part of any class, I am a player that uses classes as a tool to accomplish objectives in guild wars. I won many battles I shouldn't have in PvP because I chose to run some SR abusing build on a lame map. I've abused soul reaping and can honestly say that putting a hard cap on it will improve game balance. It will also make it less EZ mode in PvE.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miral

oh and before you ask, yes I've played other classes too. I've played em all quite a bit. rather than grinding for titles, I start a new character and learn all the classes.

I wasn't going to ask because it means nothing. A blind monkey on crack could finish a PvE campaign and claim they learned something. I asked whether you've played necromancer because some of your statements seem to contradict pre-nerf soul reaping, and I was hoping you were ignorant and inexperienced, not an idiot. Guess I was wrong.

crimsonfilms · Jun 09, 2007, 12:08 AM // 00:08

GW PvE is getting worse because ANet panders to the bottom of the barrel. They make changes that makes it dumber and dumber. PvE was already so easy that half of your brain would have been dripping out of your ear to make it 'hard'.

Make it easy Anet - so the replayability is lower. The grind worthless. Give PvE the knife to slit their own wrist.

Lord Mendes · Jun 09, 2007, 12:44 AM // 00:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by countesscorpula

If you think (and anyone else for that matter) that Pre Nerf Soul Reaping was so game breakingly powerful in PvE, where are your posts calling for the nerf bat before the nerf came into being?

Check the PvP forums. There was a wonderful 10 page thread about it, where most people came to the conclusion that some variant of a pip system would be the best way to make soul reaping less abusable (which includes bulldozing through areas in PvE) all while maintaining a somewhat natual and reliable feel to it. It would be the ideal solution in my opinion, yet riverside might disagree because it isn't as good as pre-nerf soul reaping.

@ Bryant
This should be in another thread, but the discussion was already going on here and I felt like contributing.
Not sure whether to take your comment as a compliment (thanks

), or dismiss it as sarcasm

I'm done with quote wars for tonight.

Bryant Again · Jun 09, 2007, 12:55 AM // 00:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lord Mendes

This should be in another thread, but the discussion was already going on here and I felt like contributing.
Not sure whether to take your comment as a compliment (thanks

), or dismiss it as sarcasm

I'm done with quote wars for tonight.

Lol no man, I was serious. I can understand it being hard to tell, though, especially on these forums.

It took me sometime after being in that thread to get me to see that Necros were in fact balanced, not nerfed. Being a purely PvE player will do that to you, make you think craziness.

MrTickle · Jun 09, 2007, 01:28 AM // 01:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lord Mendes

Check the PvP forums...

QFT Not a problem in PVE

Miral · Jun 09, 2007, 01:28 AM // 01:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lord Mendes

Check the PvP forums. There was a wonderful 10 page thread about it, where most people came to the conclusion that some variant of a pip system would be the best way to make soul reaping less abusable (which includes bulldozing through areas in PvE) all while maintaining a somewhat natual and reliable feel to it. It would be the ideal solution in my opinion, yet riverside might disagree because it isn't as good as pre-nerf soul reaping.

by pip system you mean e-regen instead of e-gain? that would certainly be better than this timer nonsense, though e-gain as it was with no gain from spirits or minions would be perfect... completely keep it in line in pvp, and make it so in pve it only triggers after you kill something (or when a party member dies, in which case the team could really use the extra little boost)

i won't argue that maybe soul reaping was a little overpowered before the nerf, most of which was caused by gains from spirits and minions. but honestly, the timer is one of the dumbest ideas they've come up with. sure, it makes it less powerful and all that, but it also makes it less natural and not fit the game. and for anet to continue along by just multiplying the values after all the discussion and promised that they were really looking into it... if thats theyre idea of looking into it.... well, its just insulting.

Plague · Jun 09, 2007, 02:13 AM // 02:13

For each point of Soul Reaping, you gain 1 Energy whenever a creature near you dies. You gain half that amount for Spirits. You can only gain Energy this way every 5 seconds.

No, ANet. Bad dog!

For each point of soul reaping, you gain 1 energy whenever a creature near you dies. You may only gain energy in this way 3 times every 15 seconds. You only gain energy from Spirits you control.

What did I just tell you!? Bad dog! Badddd DOG! We don't do that there! You poop OUTSIDE! Go lie down in the kitchen!

I swear, that dog. And who has to clean up the mess?

For each point of soul reaping, each time a nearby creature or a spirit you control dies, you gain 1/3 of that amount every 3 seconds for 9 seconds. You can only gain benefit from soul reaping once every three seconds.

It takes forever to get the stains out of the carpet.

1: 1... 0... 0
2: 1... 1... 0
3: 1... 1... 1
4: 2... 1... 1
5: 2... 2... 1
6: 2... 2... 2
7: 3... 2... 2
8: 3... 3... 2
9: 3... 3... 3
10: 4... 3... 3
11: 4... 4... 3
12: 4... 4... 4
13: 5... 4... 4
14: 5... 5... 4
15: 5... 5... 5
16: 6... 5... 5

No spike of energy. When a new creature dies, the counter is reset to the first number. So if a spirit dies at 8 soul reaping, you immediately gain 3 energy. Three seconds later, you gain another 3 energy. One second later, a monster dies. You gain 3 energy immediately, and the old counter is broken. (You will not gain the previous death's 2 energy.) This continues until nothing has died to continue the cycle. This does not allow for spikes of energy to supply 25 energy skills, and does not provide an endless stream of energy. This also does not punish players when enemies die at the same time. Fixed.

This is just one of hundreds of ways to balance soul reaping that is not profoundly stupid. It took me literally 30 seconds to think this up. It may not be the best solution, ever, but it's much better than anything ANet can think of, apparently. (It doesn't take much intelligence to be employed by them, apparently. Just a lot of arrogance.)

The Great Al · Jun 09, 2007, 02:23 AM // 02:23

What I don't understand is, if SR is generally fine PvP wise, then why even attempt to change it? If mesmers are fine PvP wise (hell, probably even overpowered) then why buff them for PvE? GW is a PvP centric game (this coming from someone who PvEs almost exclusively)....I mean, every skill balance has been centered around PvP, and Anet obviously doesn't really care about the SS skills, which are 2 months late...I feel like not enough PvErs were complaining about these professions (no one Mesmers in PvE anyway) and now that they decided to tweak it, there is an outrage. The only ways to make tweak these professions, especially mesmers, to what hte PvE community wants, would be to completely unbalance PvP, which Anet is obviously unwilling to do. From what I've seen of the Mesmer changes (that may or may not be what Anet is intending), they are basically buffing Mesmer mechanics that no one uses in PvP anyway, with the hope that people will see it as a buff. Unfortunately, the community isn't THAT dumb.

Miral · Jun 09, 2007, 02:38 AM // 02:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Great Al

The only ways to make tweak these professions, especially mesmers, to what hte PvE community wants, would be to completely unbalance PvP, which Anet is obviously unwilling to do.

or make mechanics function differently in pve and pvp, which anet also seems unwilling to do for some strange reason...

Plague · Jun 09, 2007, 02:39 AM // 02:39

Here's another variation. It took me a whole minute to think up. (I had to go look up how much energy you gained from energy regeneration.) Super hard. Super.

For every 3 points of soul reaping, when a nearby creature or spirit you control dies, you gain +1 energy regeneration for 3 seconds. For each separated rank of soul reaping, you immediately gain 1 energy.

I hate math... But behold!

Energy regeneration: 1 "pip" is 1 energy every 3 seconds.

PIPS....Every 3 seconds

1.......1
2.......2
3.......3
4.......4
5.......5
6.......6
7.......7
8.......8
9.......9
10......10

10 is the maximum limit of energy regeneration. Garsh, super tough.

Okay, actual math:

SR......PIPS....+ENERGY.........TOTAL
1.......4.........1...............+0 /3 secs +1
2.......4.........2...................+0 /3 secs +2
3.......5.........0...................+3 /3 secs
4.......5.........1...................+3 /3 secs +1
5.......5.........2...................+3 /3 secs +2
6.......6.........0...................+6 /3 secs
7.......6.........1...................+6 /3 secs +1
8.......6.........2...................+6 /3 secs +2
9.......7.........0...................+9 /3 secs
10......7.........1...................+9 /3 secs +1
11......7.........2...................+9 /3 secs +2
12......8.........0...................+12 /3 secs
13......8.........1...................+12 /3 secs +1
14......8.........2...................+12 /3 secs +2
15......9.........0...................+15 /3 secs
16......9.........1...................+15 /3 secs +1
17......9.........2
18......10........0
19......10........1
20......10........2
21......10........3
22......10........4

The only way to cap out your energy regeneration at +10 (so that you would be at a loss for energy) would be to use an energy regeneration skill.

Note: For bosses, which can have a soul reaping attribute beyond 20, and subsequently, a capped energy regeneration of +10, they gain any additional energy as pure energy. Or, they can go screw themselves. They're bosses, who cares about them?

{edit}: Forums hate tab.

Yichi · Jun 09, 2007, 02:41 AM // 02:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miral

or make mechanics function differently in pve and pvp, which anet also seems unwilling to do for some strange reason...

Because as pointed out the other 938,745,903,674,056,837,604,686,566 times, this goes against the fundamental mechanic on which the entire game was based.....

The Great Al · Jun 09, 2007, 02:46 AM // 02:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miral

or make mechanics function differently in pve and pvp, which anet also seems unwilling to do for some strange reason...

You're asking Anet to design a completely new mechanic, when 10 sunspear skills are months overdue. It doesn't make sense for Anet to do that to a 2 year old game. Also, to be honest, there are MUCH worse problems with PvE than the fact that necros are getting slightly too much energy, and no one plays as a mesmer. Why Anet all of a sudden decided to mess with these things at all surprises me. Far more people are complaining about the state of the economy and the monster/NPC AI than are complaining about the lack of mesmers.

I play necro once in a while, I honestly don't even see what the big deal is about SR. If it makes them slightly overpowered in PvE , it doesn't really matter, individual performance hardly makes a difference in PvE. PvE is far too simple in GW for an extra 5 energy every 10 seconds or whatever to have a devastating impact on anything.

Miral · Jun 09, 2007, 02:50 AM // 02:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by MistressYichi

Because as pointed out the other 938,745,903,674,056,837,604,686,566 times, this goes against the fundamental mechanic on which the entire game was based.....

*shrug* they're already so far from what it once was... might as well keep it fun for all who play

Yichi · Jun 09, 2007, 02:53 AM // 02:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miral

*shrug* they're already so far from what it once was... might as well keep it fun for all who play

and by doing so they create a new game... aka GW2.. who knew?

Miral · Jun 09, 2007, 02:58 AM // 02:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Great Al

You're asking Anet to design a completely new mechanic, when 10 sunspear skills are months overdue. It doesn't make sense for Anet to do that to a 2 year old game. Also, to be honest, there are MUCH worse problems with PvE than the fact that necros are getting slightly too much energy, and no one plays as a mesmer. Why Anet all of a sudden decided to mess with these things at all surprises me. Far more people are complaining about the state of the economy and the monster/NPC AI than are complaining about the lack of mesmers.

I play necro once in a while, I honestly don't even see what the big deal is about SR. If it makes them slightly overpowered in PvE , it doesn't really matter, individual performance hardly makes a difference in PvE. PvE is far too simple in GW for an extra 5 energy every 10 seconds or whatever to have a devastating impact on anything.

nah i don't really expect them to. I know they don't give a damn. but hey, its worth a 2 second try at it, right?
and I agree with you about nerfing SR in PvE shouldn't be a priority heh, it worked fine before, just so convoluted with their "fixes".
However for mesmers... I actually do play a mesmer. its one of my 3 favorite characters I think. I don't really think they're underpowered or anything, but the proposed fast cast on signets should be a good change in both pvp and pve

its really odd, their idea of balance. over the last couple years its just become a dance by anet where they let a gimmick build become flavor of the month, let it go on a bit, then nerf it into complete uselessness. let a new build rise up as a gimmick fotm, let it go for a while, and nerf it. and just continue indefinitely until the servers shut down, and in the end, its those who don't jump from gimmick build to gimmick build who suffer for it.

The Great Al · Jun 09, 2007, 03:05 AM // 03:05

I don't really notice that at all in PvE because I primarily play as a Nuker, and not many nuke in PvP, so the skills I use are generally unchanged.

Anet basically has to do that, though. WoW is centered around PvE, and when there are skill changes, PvP suffers. Anet knows that they are not going to win players over from WoW with PvE, so they have to keep PvP in tip-top shape.

Miral · Jun 09, 2007, 03:10 AM // 03:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Great Al

I don't really notice that at all in PvE because I primarily play as a Nuker, and not many nuke in PvP, so the skills I use are generally unchanged.

Anet basically has to do that, though. WoW is centered around PvE, and when there are skill changes, PvP suffers. Anet knows that they are not going to win players over from WoW with PvE, so they have to keep PvP in tip-top shape.

really I think guildwars beats WoW in PvE hands down... and on another note that guildwars pvp isnt all that, but eh *shrug*
the only main problem I have with guildwars at the moment is the way that balance and other changes are handled, and that's a big one. And one that will keep a lot of people from buying guildwars2 if anet doesn't step up their game and show more effort.